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	<title>Comments on: Shuttleworth Is Right - Apple is Linux&#8217;s Main Competition</title>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9931</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9931</guid>
		<description>Let's not forget art. The GIMP is nice and getting better, Inkscape, Scribus, nice, and we all love Blender. But currently, I would say that the two biggest holes are Linux games and media production. Everything else I just trust will improve because we have so many brains hacking at it so often.

Mac does the media production very well, but I think more than that (since most people buying Macs don't necessarily make media of any consequence), it's sexy and it's hip. If we could manage to make Linux not seem scary, but instead seem like the hip, visionary, revolution on your screen we all know it is, then we would probably pull a lot more people from Mac.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s not forget art. The GIMP is nice and getting better, Inkscape, Scribus, nice, and we all love Blender. But currently, I would say that the two biggest holes are Linux games and media production. Everything else I just trust will improve because we have so many brains hacking at it so often.</p>
<p>Mac does the media production very well, but I think more than that (since most people buying Macs don&#8217;t necessarily make media of any consequence), it&#8217;s sexy and it&#8217;s hip. If we could manage to make Linux not seem scary, but instead seem like the hip, visionary, revolution on your screen we all know it is, then we would probably pull a lot more people from Mac.</p>
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		<title>By: pt</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9930</link>
		<dc:creator>pt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9930</guid>
		<description>This is a big mistake.
Apple is the high end of the market. People that buy Apple aren't worried about the price they want something that works perfectly and are willing to pay for it. The applications on it are beautiful in appearance and functionality (I am a Linux User).

I am sorry but Linux doesn't have these beuatiful application and doesn't need it at the moment.

Linux's main advantage is the low price, and hence the low end of the market. This end of the market want something cheap and that mostly works.

So while Apple attacks the higher end of the market, Linux needs to attack the lower end of the market. Two pronged attack.

Say at current market share
MS - 90
Apple -8
Linux - 1

Even if Linux miraculously eats at Apple's share MS will still be 90.

Most Software developers still won't see it necessary to make applications for non MS OSes.

But if Apple continued to eat away at the high end of the market:
Apple - 16
Linux - 4
MS - 80

Then you will see software developers writing their applications with a flexible architecture so it can be ported to other OSes.

You need to wipe away MS Monopolistic advantage to have any chance of succeeding. Buy going after Apple you are only helping MS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a big mistake.<br />
Apple is the high end of the market. People that buy Apple aren&#8217;t worried about the price they want something that works perfectly and are willing to pay for it. The applications on it are beautiful in appearance and functionality (I am a Linux User).</p>
<p>I am sorry but Linux doesn&#8217;t have these beuatiful application and doesn&#8217;t need it at the moment.</p>
<p>Linux&#8217;s main advantage is the low price, and hence the low end of the market. This end of the market want something cheap and that mostly works.</p>
<p>So while Apple attacks the higher end of the market, Linux needs to attack the lower end of the market. Two pronged attack.</p>
<p>Say at current market share<br />
MS - 90<br />
Apple -8<br />
Linux - 1</p>
<p>Even if Linux miraculously eats at Apple&#8217;s share MS will still be 90.</p>
<p>Most Software developers still won&#8217;t see it necessary to make applications for non MS OSes.</p>
<p>But if Apple continued to eat away at the high end of the market:<br />
Apple - 16<br />
Linux - 4<br />
MS - 80</p>
<p>Then you will see software developers writing their applications with a flexible architecture so it can be ported to other OSes.</p>
<p>You need to wipe away MS Monopolistic advantage to have any chance of succeeding. Buy going after Apple you are only helping MS.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9914</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9914</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with you and have been saying this exact thing for quite some time now</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with you and have been saying this exact thing for quite some time now</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Henkins</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9871</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Henkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9871</guid>
		<description>I agree regarding general external devices on Mac, a lot of vendors actually formally supports their devices on MacOS, whereas only a few exceptional companies does it for Linux. This is the "official" situation. 

The "unofficial" situation is totally different, especially when if comes to USB devices that conforms to the very strict USB technical standards. People like Greg K-H helped a lot to ensure that Linux conforms rather anally to these standards, which is both a pain and an asset. It means that "proper" USB devices have a very good chance of being supported under Linux, whereas the other more shady type USB device will be rejected by the Linux kernel USB subsystem. Most USB and FireWire devices works out of the box, and you can get some more esoteric devices (e.g. my Creative ZEN media player) can be made to work with some help (in the ZEN's case there is a FUSE plugin that supports MTP, or Multimedia Transfer Protocol, and makes it available as a file system).

There will always be external devices that is so closed down that it will never work in either Linux or OSX, simply due to the fact that the vendor(s) are not interested in that part of the market. They also tend to be a lot more niche than, say, USB pen drives as a category.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree regarding general external devices on Mac, a lot of vendors actually formally supports their devices on MacOS, whereas only a few exceptional companies does it for Linux. This is the &#8220;official&#8221; situation. </p>
<p>The &#8220;unofficial&#8221; situation is totally different, especially when if comes to USB devices that conforms to the very strict USB technical standards. People like Greg K-H helped a lot to ensure that Linux conforms rather anally to these standards, which is both a pain and an asset. It means that &#8220;proper&#8221; USB devices have a very good chance of being supported under Linux, whereas the other more shady type USB device will be rejected by the Linux kernel USB subsystem. Most USB and FireWire devices works out of the box, and you can get some more esoteric devices (e.g. my Creative ZEN media player) can be made to work with some help (in the ZEN&#8217;s case there is a FUSE plugin that supports MTP, or Multimedia Transfer Protocol, and makes it available as a file system).</p>
<p>There will always be external devices that is so closed down that it will never work in either Linux or OSX, simply due to the fact that the vendor(s) are not interested in that part of the market. They also tend to be a lot more niche than, say, USB pen drives as a category.</p>
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		<title>By: Rakhun</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9866</link>
		<dc:creator>Rakhun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9866</guid>
		<description>On the note of hardware support I'd like to mention that when installing OS X, if you customize the installation there is an option whether to install printer drivers or not, and those took 4.3 gb (or some similarly insane size, lots of drivers), however no mention of other drivers (perhaps just not optional).
And sound and wireless didn't work (hackintosh, to try building a project on multiple platforms)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the note of hardware support I&#8217;d like to mention that when installing OS X, if you customize the installation there is an option whether to install printer drivers or not, and those took 4.3 gb (or some similarly insane size, lots of drivers), however no mention of other drivers (perhaps just not optional).<br />
And sound and wireless didn&#8217;t work (hackintosh, to try building a project on multiple platforms)</p>
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		<title>By: InTheLoop</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9826</link>
		<dc:creator>InTheLoop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9826</guid>
		<description>Wayne - When I and most people say "Linux" we mean "all the Linux distributions in general" not "a chunk of source code that forms the basis of a lot of operating systems." Yes, you are technically correct, but I think most people understand Linux as "all the Linux distributions in general" (that is, if they "understand" Linux at all.)

For everyone talking about my statement that more devices and software support the Mac, I should have clarified myself. What I meant is that more external devices, such as MP3 players, random weird USB devices, and that sort of thing, support the Mac.

foo (who said windows games) - First, that is really just games support Windows, so see point #1. Second, I consider gaming a small niche market. I don't have any numbers to back that up, but I don't think the majority of people consider themselves PC gamers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne - When I and most people say &#8220;Linux&#8221; we mean &#8220;all the Linux distributions in general&#8221; not &#8220;a chunk of source code that forms the basis of a lot of operating systems.&#8221; Yes, you are technically correct, but I think most people understand Linux as &#8220;all the Linux distributions in general&#8221; (that is, if they &#8220;understand&#8221; Linux at all.)</p>
<p>For everyone talking about my statement that more devices and software support the Mac, I should have clarified myself. What I meant is that more external devices, such as MP3 players, random weird USB devices, and that sort of thing, support the Mac.</p>
<p>foo (who said windows games) - First, that is really just games support Windows, so see point #1. Second, I consider gaming a small niche market. I don&#8217;t have any numbers to back that up, but I don&#8217;t think the majority of people consider themselves PC gamers.</p>
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		<title>By: Sephi</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9822</link>
		<dc:creator>Sephi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9822</guid>
		<description>1. I'm a huge supporter of FOSS so I won't discuss this point.
2. There's no better way of installing software than Debian packages (IMHO).
3. Kwin or Metacity (just to quote two WM) can be customized to look like OS X. Also KDE can be heavily customized, to perfectly fit the user's needs and greatly increase his experience.
4. I don't know if it's true, since MacOS is primarily designed to run on Apple hardware, while GNU/Linux has always been designed to run on a lot of different architectures and, as the time goes by, supports more and more devices.

The only thing that's missing to Linux is support from manufacturers (free drivers) and easy-to-use desktop applications (there are already some of them, but I think there's still a huge lack here).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. I&#8217;m a huge supporter of FOSS so I won&#8217;t discuss this point.<br />
2. There&#8217;s no better way of installing software than Debian packages (IMHO).<br />
3. Kwin or Metacity (just to quote two WM) can be customized to look like OS X. Also KDE can be heavily customized, to perfectly fit the user&#8217;s needs and greatly increase his experience.<br />
4. I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s true, since MacOS is primarily designed to run on Apple hardware, while GNU/Linux has always been designed to run on a lot of different architectures and, as the time goes by, supports more and more devices.</p>
<p>The only thing that&#8217;s missing to Linux is support from manufacturers (free drivers) and easy-to-use desktop applications (there are already some of them, but I think there&#8217;s still a huge lack here).</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9816</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9816</guid>
		<description>(4) I would guess to be the opposite actually.  Apple has a tight control over their hardware so I believe Macs only work for a small subset of hardware then what linux does.  Doing that however allows Apple (in my opinion) to put the rest of their focus elsewhere.  Hence going back to number (1).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(4) I would guess to be the opposite actually.  Apple has a tight control over their hardware so I believe Macs only work for a small subset of hardware then what linux does.  Doing that however allows Apple (in my opinion) to put the rest of their focus elsewhere.  Hence going back to number (1).</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9814</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9814</guid>
		<description>It does not make sense to refer to "Linux" as being in "competition" with either Apple's OSX or Microsoft's Windows operating systems.  "Linux" is a trademarked name for a free and open-source operating system kernel.  The Linux project is supported completely by donations and contributions, it's survival is not dependent on people's choice to pay for a license to use it, whereas both Microsoft's Windows and Apple's OSX are completely dependent on people paying money for the license to use them.  It's similar as claiming that a public highway is in "competition" with a toll road.

What Mark Shuttleworth is really saying (IMHO) is that Canonical's Ubuntu software product is in competition with both, Apple's OSX and Microsoft's Windows, software products and he believes that new customers (or users) of Ubuntu will more likely come from people choosing between OSX and Ubuntu rather people choosing between Windows and Ubuntu.  That is, the potential growth in customer base for both, Ubuntu and OSX, is from defecting Windows users who are "fed up" with Windows and looking at other options.

This is only the opinion of a person with limited real knowledge of the industry, but on gut feeling I would agree with Shuttleworth's claim.  It seems to me that people who are satisfied with using Microsoft's Windows are not interested in "Linux" (few even know what a "Ubuntu" is...) and generally consider Apple or "Mac" users as some kind of strange, but harmless, cult.  It's the Windows users that have grown weary of the Microsoft OS and the computers it runs on (and this seems to be a growing number), and are looking for alternatives to do the things they feel they need a personal computer for, who are the potential new "marketshare" for both, OSX and Ubuntu (and other similar software products based on Linux and FSF software).  So, what will be more appealing to most of these "Windows deserters", an Apple Mac or a "PC" with Ubuntu or similar Linux-based system installed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It does not make sense to refer to &#8220;Linux&#8221; as being in &#8220;competition&#8221; with either Apple&#8217;s OSX or Microsoft&#8217;s Windows operating systems.  &#8220;Linux&#8221; is a trademarked name for a free and open-source operating system kernel.  The Linux project is supported completely by donations and contributions, it&#8217;s survival is not dependent on people&#8217;s choice to pay for a license to use it, whereas both Microsoft&#8217;s Windows and Apple&#8217;s OSX are completely dependent on people paying money for the license to use them.  It&#8217;s similar as claiming that a public highway is in &#8220;competition&#8221; with a toll road.</p>
<p>What Mark Shuttleworth is really saying (IMHO) is that Canonical&#8217;s Ubuntu software product is in competition with both, Apple&#8217;s OSX and Microsoft&#8217;s Windows, software products and he believes that new customers (or users) of Ubuntu will more likely come from people choosing between OSX and Ubuntu rather people choosing between Windows and Ubuntu.  That is, the potential growth in customer base for both, Ubuntu and OSX, is from defecting Windows users who are &#8220;fed up&#8221; with Windows and looking at other options.</p>
<p>This is only the opinion of a person with limited real knowledge of the industry, but on gut feeling I would agree with Shuttleworth&#8217;s claim.  It seems to me that people who are satisfied with using Microsoft&#8217;s Windows are not interested in &#8220;Linux&#8221; (few even know what a &#8220;Ubuntu&#8221; is&#8230;) and generally consider Apple or &#8220;Mac&#8221; users as some kind of strange, but harmless, cult.  It&#8217;s the Windows users that have grown weary of the Microsoft OS and the computers it runs on (and this seems to be a growing number), and are looking for alternatives to do the things they feel they need a personal computer for, who are the potential new &#8220;marketshare&#8221; for both, OSX and Ubuntu (and other similar software products based on Linux and FSF software).  So, what will be more appealing to most of these &#8220;Windows deserters&#8221;, an Apple Mac or a &#8220;PC&#8221; with Ubuntu or similar Linux-based system installed?</p>
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		<title>By: Jimbo</title>
		<link>http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/07/23/shuttleworth-is-right-apple-is-linuxs-main-competition/#comment-9804</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linuxloop.com/news/?p=392#comment-9804</guid>
		<description>You have completely missed the point because Shuttleworth is not saying Apple is the biggest competitor, he is saying Apple is the bench mark Ubuntu needs to aspire for. Shuttleworth has mentioned many times his admiration for OSX and how he thinks it is the best OS out there (yes, even better than Ubuntu). His point is Ubuntu should be aiming to be on a par or better than OSX rather than aiming to be better than Windows which isnt even the best OS out there.

Aside from the fact Ubuntu and OSX are both alternatives to Windows they have very little direct competition. People buy Macs because they want an all in one hardware and software solution, Ubuntu do not offer this. Apple will grow their market share, but not at the expense of Linux growing theirs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have completely missed the point because Shuttleworth is not saying Apple is the biggest competitor, he is saying Apple is the bench mark Ubuntu needs to aspire for. Shuttleworth has mentioned many times his admiration for OSX and how he thinks it is the best OS out there (yes, even better than Ubuntu). His point is Ubuntu should be aiming to be on a par or better than OSX rather than aiming to be better than Windows which isnt even the best OS out there.</p>
<p>Aside from the fact Ubuntu and OSX are both alternatives to Windows they have very little direct competition. People buy Macs because they want an all in one hardware and software solution, Ubuntu do not offer this. Apple will grow their market share, but not at the expense of Linux growing theirs.</p>
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